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REN Forms

growlywench

Veteran (100+ posts)
#61
That is very true. The website is a bit if a bomb site, and still too many clicks to find stuff, with no version control, which I find frustrating. Old stuff needs archiving or removing.
 

bagu

Veteran (100+ posts)
#62
Has anyone seen that the home contact details now require 2 emergency contacts not at the same address for each participant? Is this new too or had I overlooked it before? Not all our families or leaders have extensive local support systems and if the 2 contacts can't be 2 x parents (both with separate mobiles as well as landline) because they live in the same house then some will struggle to identify someone that they'd actually be happy to be contacted in an emergency... To be honest I'll struggle personally to always think of a 2nd emergency contact who would actually be useful or I would want contacted in an emergency.

Also in the past we've been encouraged to collect health forms in as near to the event as possible so they're up-to-date. Not everyone has any easy access to a photocopier or scanner (not all of us have high-tech phones! or live/camp in places with good phone signals) so when my Guide with disorganised parents forgets her form at the meeting before and only brings it with her finally when we arrvie at camp... then how exactly am I meant to get a copy of it to the emergency contact? I know the official answer will be that if they don't bring a form at the stated date (to allow for copying etc...) they can't go - but it's exactly those Guides with parent who struggle with forms for whatever reason and need help/encouragement that are the ones who will often get the most out of attending the residential....
Also even if you have the health forms beforehand - if someone then turns up at camp with a new medication or similar that amends their health form - we've got to send an amended copy of the form to the emergency contact too?
 

dragnilk

Regular (50+ posts)
#63
Has anyone seen that the home contact details now require 2 emergency contacts not at the same address for each participant? Is this new too or had I overlooked it before? Not all our families or leaders have extensive local support systems and if the 2 contacts can't be 2 x parents (both with separate mobiles as well as landline) because they live in the same house then some will struggle to identify someone that they'd actually be happy to be contacted in an emergency... To be honest I'll struggle personally to always think of a 2nd emergency contact who would actually be useful or I would want contacted in an emergency.

Also in the past we've been encouraged to collect health forms in as near to the event as possible so they're up-to-date. Not everyone has any easy access to a photocopier or scanner (not all of us have high-tech phones! or live/camp in places with good phone signals) so when my Guide with disorganised parents forgets her form at the meeting before and only brings it with her finally when we arrvie at camp... then how exactly am I meant to get a copy of it to the emergency contact? I know the official answer will be that if they don't bring a form at the stated date (to allow for copying etc...) they can't go - but it's exactly those Guides with parent who struggle with forms for whatever reason and need help/encouragement that are the ones who will often get the most out of attending the residential....
Also even if you have the health forms beforehand - if someone then turns up at camp with a new medication or similar that amends their health form - we've got to send an amended copy of the form to the emergency contact too?
I read your post and just sighed!!
I had already thought that demanding two different addressed emergency contacts was a bit tough. I mainly get given both parents as emergency contacts and I really can't face the thought of chasing up for someone at a different address.

I hadn't even thought about the fact of what to do with health forms that are only brought or updated on the day. When I started doing residentials the health form always had to be brought on the day of travel so it was up to date. I appreciate the advice for this has changed and now ask for them back the week before the event but that doesn't always happen, especially if they miss that meeting, and if they forget to bring it with them then parents either fill out a new one if I have enough spares or have to go home to get it.
 

bagu

Veteran (100+ posts)
#65
I'm wondering why the emergency contact actually needs the health/consent forms (for a local event anyway - I guess it might be different if you've gone to the Himalayas or something). I'm sure there must have been some incident somewhere which set this off but I can't think of a single instance in 20 years of running residential events and being an emergency contact for others when I actually needed my emergency contact to have that information....

Perhaps if there was more explanation as to the thinking behind some of these changes it would be helpful.
 

dragnilk

Regular (50+ posts)
#66
I suggest everyone with concerns emails Girlguiding about this.
I'm hoping we can have it as a discussion point at our next District Meeting. I am also unhappy with the requirements for a home contact at any meeting away from the meeting place and want to see what other Leaders in my area think too.
 

browniebeth

Brownie Leader
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#67
Me neither, it feels like a huge oversharing of information, some of which is sensitive.

Not only totally impractical, but I would question whether it is actually legally acceptable...taking data sharing for limited purposes to a whole new level.
 

browniebeth

Brownie Leader
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#68
Home contact or not should be down to a huge dollop of common sense. If I'm taking a coach load to Warwick castle etc for the day, or staying over somewhere, or doing something defined as "adventurous" (and so higher risk) yep, fine.

If we're doing a walk one summer evening through the park or going bowling, no.
 

badgemad4

Veteran (100+ posts)
#69
My only guess for health forms might be for in the case of a “major event”, if the home contact needs to contact a third party they might need to place emphasis on something like if someone was visually impaired or in a wheel chair. But that would be a very extraordinary set of circumstances.

It does seem a bit contradictory to one of the main points of the new guidance- that personal information available should be kept to a minimum and only to essential parties.
 

dragnilk

Regular (50+ posts)
#70
Home contact or not should be down to a huge dollop of common sense. If I'm taking a coach load to Warwick castle etc for the day, or staying over somewhere, or doing something defined as "adventurous" (and so higher risk) yep, fine.

If we're doing a walk one summer evening through the park or going bowling, no.
Yes, Yes, Yes!
This is my approach too!!!! Part of the risk assessment for an activity should be whether you need a home contact!
 

ker-stee

SGP Enthusiast
GuiderPlus
#71
Surely asking your HC to carry copies of all of the forms with them is a real risk to data safety? They're not going to sit at home all weekend in case the phone rings, so do they then have to take all the paperwork out in their handbag? Or to the theatre? Or out for a meal?

I've only ever used my home contact once in all my years of Guiding - and that was last year when we were on a day Narrowboat trip and one of the lock gates was jammed shut so we couldn't get back to the original starting point with the girls/boat! My HC was just given a list of the girls' names and their emergency contact details which was sufficent.

I've been a HC for a lot of people (It doesn't matter who it is, they can be anywhere in the country as long as they have phone signal) and i've never thought 'Oh, I really needed the health forms in case something happens...'

I've already emailed Guiding with my numerous concerns about this, but they can come and do all my pre Brownie Holiday paperwork if they want to see how much extra stuff it's going to add on!
 

Quack

Veteran (100+ posts)
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#72
We may all have been lucky...but how would we react to a situation such as the Canadian Hockey team ? It does need to be proportionate but a lot of information should be on GO already and accessible to your DC say if you are going out for an evening...or pulling off a report and emailing it to your home contact beforehand.
 

Burghilly

Veteran (100+ posts)
#73
In a tragic situation where there is instant loss of life a health form is clearly of no use to anyone.

Similarly in a situation where extreme urgent medical attention is required doctors and paramedics will just get on with what they do day-in, day-out. After all, the majority of people don't hand a health form to someone every time they leave the house.

Absolutely trip leaders should have all relevant health info to hand , but I can't see what use this could be to a home contact.

As a leader I would also have no way of guaranteeing that information stayed confidential once handed to a third party. Should the data go astray would I still be responsible for it?
 

fenris

fenris
GuiderPlus
#74
We may all have been lucky...but how would we react to a situation such as the Canadian Hockey team ? It does need to be proportionate but a lot of information should be on GO already and accessible to your DC say if you are going out for an evening...or pulling off a report and emailing it to your home contact beforehand.
In a situation like that it would be irresponsible to interrupt the work of the emergency services with frivolous talk of health forms. And when dealing with contacting parents 're serious injuries/fatalities the contents of a health form are unlikely to make a whit of difference, especially such any such info would be obtained from the surviving adults in the scene or not at all.

Using contacts from GO rather than those supplied for the specific event may significantly delay communication at a time when clear prompt information needs to be communicated to parents promptly, to try to avoid them hearing from the media first

We don't need to ponder the Canadian incident hereabouts, we remember the Glasgow one which led to the home contact system being created :-(
 

*Emerald*

Brownie and Rangers Leader
#75
I have so many concerns about this. I think it's going to be massively off-putting for a lot of people. We're already giving up our own free/holiday/family time to take girls on residentials, there's already hours of planning, paperwork and preparation required, who needs the extra headache? We've got a Brownie holiday recently confirmed for this July, but I'll think twice about planning another one.
 

Orly

Veteran (100+ posts)
#76
We may all have been lucky...but how would we react to a situation such as the Canadian Hockey team ? It does need to be proportionate but a lot of information should be on GO already and accessible to your DC say if you are going out for an evening...or pulling off a report and emailing it to your home contact beforehand.
Am I the only person who finds this an absolutely bizarre example as to why we need a home contact for an evening at the park? I'm genuinely confused, as I thought we were talking about things which were guaranteed or highly likely to happen - not a random accident in a foreign country.
 

Tawnyowl51

Veteran (100+ posts)
#77
I am alo thinking hard whether I wish to organise another residential, or even venture outside our hall if the HC needs 2 numbers at different addresses just for a walk to the park.
At this rate the idea of girls doing anything adventurous is at risk of becoming consigned to the history books. That or people will choose not to follow the new rules, and put girls at more risk than before the new stuff appeared.
There does come a point where people are not prepared to continue volunteering when the hurdles put in front of them become too many, too high and too far removed from the initial aim of the game.

Regarding outings and residentials, I am getting very close to that point
 

Burghilly

Veteran (100+ posts)
#78
[QUOTE="Tawnyowl51, post:
At this rate the idea of girls doing anything adventurous is at risk of becoming consigned to the history books. That or people will choose not to follow the new rules, and put girls at more risk than before the new forms came out.[/QUOTE]

This is definitely a concern on both counts. I do wonder if the rule- makers have ever actually run a unit because there doesn't seem to be much understanding of how these 'minor changes to the form ' will affect day to day guiding .
 

growlywench

Veteran (100+ posts)
#79
I think proportionality needs to be applied somewhere along the line. I'm fairly confident we will see further guidance on the whole home contact thing from HQ. I can absolutely see why we need a home contact for a day out in the city, or an amusement park, but church parade or the local park on a sunny evening...
 

Quack

Veteran (100+ posts)
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#80
Am I the only person who finds this an absolutely bizarre example as to why we need a home contact for an evening at the park? I'm genuinely confused, as I thought we were talking about things which were guaranteed or highly likely to happen - not a random accident in a foreign country.
Because stuff happens when you least expect it...what we consider low risk can still have consequences if something happens eg a child knocked over crossing the road or falling off a swing. Thats why having someone outside of the situation who can contact parents or more help whilst you deal with the situation in front of you.