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Do you pay for leaders to go on trips?

scoobyking

Veteran (100+ posts)
#1
We're off to the panto on the train and then lunch afterwards but I only charged the parents the actual amount less a £1, that it was costing, so didnt factor in to cover the leaders. Would you pay in full for the leaders? The girls are having kids meal so adults meals will be more expensive. I was thinking of offering to pay panto ticket- would that be fair?
 

shackademus

Veteran (100+ posts)
#2
I would pay for panto tickets out of funds for the amount of adults i need. I would ask the adults if they are ok paying for their own meals, want to bring a packed lunch or wait til they get back home.
 

Quack

Veteran (100+ posts)
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#4
Generally I factor in the leaders costs. In the case of a meal at say, pizza hut, the unit would pay for them too but we wouldn't choose anything extortionate. It works both ways in that we may use a leaders family railcard, we wouldn't pay their parking, they give up their time so I wouldn't expect them to pay as well.
 

*gwen*

GIC Guide/SS
GuiderPlus
#5
I would never charge a leader for travel, as it wasn't their choice to travel that way, but if its an event the leader will enjoy and get benefit from then would maybe only subsidise part of the ticket.
 

FPG

Veteran (100+ posts)
#6
The thing is, if I was one of your leaders, I wouldn't be eating out if I wasn't taking the girls on that trip. You don't say where you're eating, but if it's a restaurant I could hardly bring a packed lunch. It's not a personal expense I could justify [eating out]. To be brutally honest I would be annoyed if I was asked to take girls on a trip and then cover the cost of things I wouldn't be doing if I wasn't there to enable the girls to do the activity. Obviously I'm not really one of your leaders, but I couldn't afford to do that and wouldn't massively relish having to explain that when I'm there as a volunteer and my financial circumstances shouldn't come into the equation (like they would if I was a young member participating).

I would sub it from unit funds this time and then make sure to factor it all into the kids' cost in future (unless it was something, like others have said, where leaders are choosing to participate in something extra beyond just what they have to do as part of enabling the activity - like an extra adult session on a climbing wall eg).
 
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fenris

fenris
GuiderPlus
#7
For day trips, I include the adults' costs onto the children's fees. The adults are volunteers who give up their time and should not be out of pocket financially.
 

jennthedeadfunkyranger

Guide Guider
GuiderPlus
#8
It depends. We try to cover leaders' costs, as we're giving up our time. For camp this summer we paid the camp fees from unit funds but paid our own food costs - we'd have been eating if we were still at home.

For the Big Gig last year we only needed one of us to go, but both of us wanted to go (if anything, for company for each other for the day). We couldn't afford to pay for 2 of us from unit funds as we had a pretty small unit at the time, so paid one in full, one ticket, and then for the coach costs for the second leader we split it between us.
 

GirlFromMars

Veteran (100+ posts)
#9
I would never ask leaders to pay for any trips. That includes food and travel and event tickets. I would either cover the cost with the kids or take from subs. Sometimes a leader may offer to pay something and that’s fine but I would then accept it as a donation to the unit.

You have to remember that people are giving up their free time to come along on the trip and if you ask them to pay they can quite rightly say no and then not come. It is then unlikely the trip could go ahead without the leaders therefore it should be included in the cost of the trip.
 

Alsino

Guide Guider
GuiderPlus
#10
Now this is something where my area must be at odds with general practice, as leaders always pay for trips.

Sometimes this is subsidised as in those going only paying for food, and for the trips I run I usually will reduce leader cost but as a rule, leaders pay the same as the girls. This goes across the district and as far as I know has always been the case.

Are we the only ones?

It does rankle on a personal level as I feel we give enough already but if I were to increase costs for guides so leaders to go free I'd be at odds with trips other units in the district were doing...
 

ker-stee

SGP Enthusiast
GuiderPlus
#11
Now this is something where my area must be at odds with general practice, as leaders always pay for trips.

Sometimes this is subsidised as in those going only paying for food, and for the trips I run I usually will reduce leader cost but as a rule, leaders pay the same as the girls. This goes across the district and as far as I know has always been the case.

Are we the only ones?

It does rankle on a personal level as I feel we give enough already but if I were to increase costs for guides so leaders to go free I'd be at odds with trips other units in the district were doing...
Can I ask, purely out of interest, what would you do if a leader couldn't afford it and you needed them for ratios? We have 5 leaders with our unit & 24/26 girls, Myself and GiC could probably pay (Although I wouldn't want to as i'm giving up time etc) however we have 3 leaders (One student & 2 who just couldn't pay it for personal reasons) Do you have some sort of 'fund' or amount you can dip into for these situations?
 

emmaluvseeyore

Brownie Leader and Ranger Assistant
#12
We always factor leaders costs in to the amount we charge to parents. However, we went to one of the World Centres events for the BBB earlier in the year, and the leaders had to pay £80 (brownies were £100). If we added all of that to the Brownie amount, it would have been way too expensive for them, so we actually use some of the unit funds and us leaders paid some towards it. I didn't ask the leaders to pay, they offered to.
Personally, for your trip I would take the money out of funds for the leaders and then in future add the costs on to the amount you charge for the girls. If I was asked to pay for my own food at a restaurant, then I would actually say that I can't go. I am happy to bring along a packed lunch if we are all having a picnic, but I am currently not in the financial situation where I can afford to have meals out left right and centre. I would rather have a meal out with my boyfriend than the girls!! To be honest though, it shouldn't matter what our financial situations are.
 

Alsino

Guide Guider
GuiderPlus
#13
If a leader I needed for ratios was struggling, I would of course find a solution, whether from funds, or by charging a little more all round.

I should emphasise that I just fall in with the established custom and practice in my area; we are in a fairly affluent village and the district is relatively small. All guide units have settled leadership teams (5-7 years plus), and all leaders have full time jobs.

If my unit was going to the local zoo for example but charging more than the other units for the same trip (because I wanted leaders to go free), parents would vote with their feet and I'd notice my girls going on the trips as friends with their pals in the other units. The girls are mostly all in the 3 local primaries and the one comprehensive.

I'm just curious to see if we are alone in charging leaders the majority of the time...
 

MsLaurie

Veteran (100+ posts)
#14
I'm a long way away (Australia!), but our local rule (99% of the time!) is that leaders give time, not cash.

I'd suggest having a discussion locally about changing your practices to "round up" the kid's costs so they cover the adults, as you really shouldn't be needing to dip into your own resources. If parents don't each want to pay an extra £5 or whatever for someone to look after and entertain their darling at the zoo, then they don't have send their kid along.
 

fenris

fenris
GuiderPlus
#15
Now this is something where my area must be at odds with general practice, as leaders always pay for trips.

Sometimes this is subsidised as in those going only paying for food, and for the trips I run I usually will reduce leader cost but as a rule, leaders pay the same as the girls. This goes across the district and as far as I know has always been the case.

Are we the only ones?

It does rankle on a personal level as I feel we give enough already but if I were to increase costs for guides so leaders to go free I'd be at odds with trips other units in the district were doing...
I suspect you are. The Leaders are unpaid volunteers. They already give up their free time, and shouldn't be out of pocket in addition to this. All of the Guiding literature also clearly states this. So the trip fees paid by the participants (the girls) should be adequate to pay the expenses of the trip, assisted by unit funds if the unit chooses to subsidies - and the expenses will include the fares/entrance fees for those adults required to attend in order to enable the trip to go ahead.

You may want to suggest the topic being raised at the next District meeting . . .
 

FPG

Veteran (100+ posts)
#16
If a leader I needed for ratios was struggling, I would of course find a solution, whether from funds, or by charging a little more all round.

I should emphasise that I just fall in with the established custom and practice in my area; we are in a fairly affluent village and the district is relatively small. All guide units have settled leadership teams (5-7 years plus), and all leaders have full time jobs.

If my unit was going to the local zoo for example but charging more than the other units for the same trip (because I wanted leaders to go free), parents would vote with their feet and I'd notice my girls going on the trips as friends with their pals in the other units. The girls are mostly all in the 3 local primaries and the one comprehensive.

I'm just curious to see if we are alone in charging leaders the majority of the time...
Except it's not a case of the leaders getting to go 'free'. I've been to the zoo with Brownies and I've been by myself. With Brownies it wasn't a trip to the zoo, it was work and responsibility looking after a group of kids (mostly enjoyable work, but still work and tiring). I'm not going to pay for the privilege of volunteering, giving up my free time, looking after children, making sure they have a good time... it's not a 'free trip to the zoo' for the leaders, it's part of the cost of taking the girls there, because with no leaders there is no trip.

I am shocked actually that your whole district always expects leaders to pay. You could have described my village and district... and on the surface most of the people in my district would think there's no reason I couldn't afford to cough up to pay to make up adult ratios on every trip going. Except they don't know what's actually been going on in my life. And even if I could afford to, I shouldn't have to. Nor should I as a volunteer ever be put in the position of having to explain or ask for special arrangements. I would just say I wasn't available. (And then someone would probably come and start a thread about their assistant leader who isn't 'committed'....)

I'm not convinced that parents would all abandon your unit if the real cost of trips was charged to them, especially if it was explained properly. They're currently getting a pretty generous discount on the real cost by the sounds of it. I really doubt they are comparing across units, or cross checking to the entrance fees of the venues you're going to... and they'll be used to schools charging them the full cost of trips including a portion of the adults' fees.

Much like when we stew about putting up subs by a tiny amount.... only to find none of the parents so much as bat an eyelid.
 

bess342

Veteran (100+ posts)
GuiderPlus
#17
I either factor all leaders costs into what girls are paying or subside from unit funds usually this is what we have fundraised for either in previous years or current year so not taken out of what parents are paying on a weekly basis. I would also subside any parents attending if I required extra adults and any girls in financial difficulties who would otherwise miss out.

We also try and get discounts from events for booking a group. This year we are going to panto. Normal price about £13 per child we are asking £10 (which covers all entry fees, ice-cream, juices, sweets - goody bag, and transport- community bus). We have managed to get school rate for entry fee £7 , community bus (only pay for petrol). So able to lower cost any overspend will be subsidised by unit from fundraising we did earlier in year.
 

Sunny2nd

Guide and Ranger Leader
GuiderPlus
#18
I was going to use the same example as FPG - Schools don't expect their staff to pay costs for trips when they take their young people out and I'm sure that they factor in part of the costs from the childrens' payments. So why should guiding do the same. However that being said I am perfectly happy to do fundraising off my own back when I can - I recently got volunteered to marshal at an event and the "pay" will go direct to unit funds and this will be used to pay for the two adults who went to the Big Gig. We are also going to be bag packing at Christmas and we hope that we will raise enough for some of this will be used to reduce the costs of camping next year, partly by covering the camp leaders costs at least.
 

jennthedeadfunkyranger

Guide Guider
GuiderPlus
#19
Can I ask, purely out of interest, what would you do if a leader couldn't afford it and you needed them for ratios? We have 5 leaders with our unit & 24/26 girls, Myself and GiC could probably pay (Although I wouldn't want to as i'm giving up time etc) however we have 3 leaders (One student & 2 who just couldn't pay it for personal reasons) Do you have some sort of 'fund' or amount you can dip into for these situations?
A couple of years ago we were going to do an overnight trip to London, as most of the girls had never been before. It didn't go ahead in the end because of lack of interest, however it was when I was supply teaching, and had very little money - one of the other Guiders said pretty much from the beginning that the unit could pay for me.

However if I were to do the same trip now, I would be able to contribute towards my costs no problems if it made it more affordeable for the girls, as the unit (different unit) couldn't afford to sub me.
 

IvyN

Veteran (100+ posts)
#20
I was going to use the same example as FPG - Schools don't expect their staff to pay costs for trips when they take their young people out and I'm sure that they factor in part of the costs from the childrens' payments. So why should guiding do the same.
Last school year, some of our girls when on a school trip to the Isle of Wight for a week, and we were told by either one of the ones who went or another girl who was friends with them, I can't remember, that 'the teachers had to pay for themselves, and it was £300 each!' I have no idea if this is true, but I'm not sure this is something a 8/9 year old would think of in the first place, nevermind lie, unless told so by someone else.