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Do you pay for leaders to go on trips?

Trinny

Veteran (100+ posts)
#21
Our unit took this to extremes a few years ago - the 4 ALs all had kids in the unit at the time, and all leaders were needed (free of monetary charge) but wanted their kids to go free as well, as otherwise the leaders couldn't come due to child care arrangements. So 5 leaders and 4 kids were subsised by the unit! But this was deemed as fair by the district, so that's what happened.
Really don't worry about subsidising your leaders - perhaps they don't fully charge for phone calls, internet, printing, stamps, let alone time!
 

nemoimo

Veteran (100+ posts)
#22
A couple of years ago we were going to do an overnight trip to London, as most of the girls had never been before. It didn't go ahead in the end because of lack of interest, however it was when I was supply teaching, and had very little money - one of the other Guiders said pretty much from the beginning that the unit could pay for me.

However if I were to do the same trip now, I would be able to contribute towards my costs no problems if it made it more affordeable for the girls, as the unit (different unit) couldn't afford to sub me.
I think this should definitely be a personal choice though, if you want to donate your fee (in full or partial), then donate it, but the starting point of all units should be that the fee for volunteers is paid for.

I can see the argument about food for camp being paid for, but even then, it might not be something you'd really choose to eat, or you might spend less on food than the food given.

At the end of the day, although we all get something out of Guiding, and we (I hope) enjoy the events we take the girls to, even if the activity itself is something you're enjoying (or might do in your free time), at the end of the day you are there as a volunteer to make sure the girls in your care are enjoying themselves and are safe.
 

emmaluvseeyore

Brownie Leader and Ranger Assistant
#23
I can see the argument about food for camp being paid for, but even then, it might not be something you'd really choose to eat, or you might spend less on food than the food given.
I can also kind of understand this argument, but seeing as a lot of us also use some of our annual leave to take girls away, it isn't really much to expect to be fed without paying for it!

I absolutely love Guiding - I would feel like I had part of me missing if I didn't do it, but I would have to seriously reconsider my involvement if I had to start paying for things that I do as a volunteer. I have no problems paying for myself if I am doing something as a participant (such as a SS, Trefoil Guild or leaders social), but I really can't justify paying money myself to take away someone else's kid!
 

HGarnett17

Veteran (100+ posts)
GuiderPlus
#24
when we go on trips we try to have some funds towards the trip. we have lots of leaders that are happy to help but cant always cover the full cost as it would up the girls prices too much. I will work out the amount for the minimum number of leaders legal and charge the girls but then any extras I will see what funds we have and charge them for part of the trip usually half of the cost of the girls!!
 

careba2010

Veteran (100+ posts)
#25
Depends where the trip is too. Anything in the UK I feel should be subsidised/ paid for by the unit and I use the argument mentioned earlier "Would I be doing this if it wasn't for Guiding?". But when it comes to International visits it should be the leader who pays especially if only a minority of their unit/county etc are going!
 

turnip

Veteran (100+ posts)
#26
For a day trip to a zoo or park where the kids are bringing packed lunches I'd expect adults to do the same. But if the trip includes a meal in a resteraunt with the girls I'd generally expect the unit to cover the cost for leaders. If your unit can't afford it, it depends on the leaders. Some just won't be able to afford it, others may have to give up something they'd prefer to do in order to pay for it, others will be fine with it.

We had a district weekend holiday earlier this year and leaders and girls were charged the same by the district. I understand the need to cover costs, but the fees were already higher than our normal pack holiday so we didn't feel we could add on the costs of leaders fees as well. I couldn't have afforded to go if I had to pay for it, it was as simple as that. Fortunately, my unit was able to use unit funds to cover leaders fees, but I know some other leaders had to pay for themselves. I'm giving up my whole weekend to entertain other peoples kids, I don't think it's unreasonable not to have to pay the same amount for it as parents are paying to have their kids entertained all weekend!
 
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Lemon13

Beginner (10+ posts)
#27
We always pay for the leaders, either out of unit funds or from adding a little extra onto the cost of the trip for the girls. As others have said before, volunteers should never be out of pocket for volunteering with Guiding.

If a trip is already quite expensive and unit funds won't cover costs for leaders then we do some fundraising/apply for local grants. Generally if a trip is too expensive to charge the girls a little extra for to cover the leaders then you'll have plenty of time to raise the money by other means!
 

Quack

Veteran (100+ posts)
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#28
The other side to this is the viability of the trip. Is it something considered early on in the planning stage, eg we would like to take the unit to X and the costs per head will be Y, to cover ratios we need Z adults. If the children pay for the adults the cost will be too high/acceptable/ acceptable if the adults contribute a portion. This is the conversation that needs to be had.

If the adults all agree to pay an aspect to go on the trip because it is something they will enjoy great, if not then you need to think again.
 

chopperchick

Veteran (100+ posts)
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#30
In general, I think it comes down to whether you see the time you spend on the trip / event as you "volunteering" to run that trip / event, and without you (e.g. for ratios) it wouldn't happen.
Or whether it's something you're taking part in as your hobby.

If you're the volunteer leader, then as a rule I'd not expect to be out of pocket.
Even if I can afford it, I don't know about the others or setting a precedent for those in the future.
So, that might be tickets, lunch, travel etc.
If I thought that was going to bump up the price "too much", then I'd be looking at fundraising.

If it was something that I'm taking part in (more than "leading"), then I'd be paying my own way.

There are some trips / events that are sometimes viewed as somewhere in the middle; international trips for example - there seems to be a bit more acceptance of contributing more personally.

But, the crucial bit is deciding that during the planning phase of the trip.
 

IvyN

Veteran (100+ posts)
#31
I had two trips this summer where my AL couldn't come, and due to numbers, meant one trip needed one parent helper and the other needed 3 parent helpers. It hardly seems polite to say "hey, we need you to help, so we can take your daughter on a trip and need you to pay £20/£40 as well for helping".
 

OrangeOwl

Veteran (100+ posts)
#32
Volunteers should not have to pay for volunteering: if they want to make a donation to the unit they should do it separately and fill out a gift aid from so the unit gets the tax back.
Further, trips and holidays/sleepovers which may not include all the girls should be self funding and should not come out of unit funds which qualify for gift-aid. We're even supposed to keep separate financial records for trips vs regular meetings so the two shouldn't overlap financially at all, therefore there isn't provision for leaders to self-fund for trips really, and it isn't the most cost-efficient way to do it.
We had a sleepover in London this week and both of the adults attending were really looking forward to it (Science Museum) so by the logic above we should have paid, however when we offer it to the next group of girls it will be less exciting for us and more of a volunteering thing so then we wouldn't pay? How is that consistent or justifiable?
 

emmaluvseeyore

Brownie Leader and Ranger Assistant
#33
Volunteers should not have to pay for volunteering: if they want to make a donation to the unit they should do it separately and fill out a gift aid from so the unit gets the tax back.
Further, trips and holidays/sleepovers which may not include all the girls should be self funding and should not come out of unit funds which qualify for gift-aid. We're even supposed to keep separate financial records for trips vs regular meetings so the two shouldn't overlap financially at all, therefore there isn't provision for leaders to self-fund for trips really, and it isn't the most cost-efficient way to do it.
We had a sleepover in London this week and both of the adults attending were really looking forward to it (Science Museum) so by the logic above we should have paid, however when we offer it to the next group of girls it will be less exciting for us and more of a volunteering thing so then we wouldn't pay? How is that consistent or justifiable?
My sleepover is partly funded from Gift Aid, so the money coming in from the parents will be less than the amount we have spent. How am I meant to show that in the accounts? I have it on one of the event sheets in the accounts, but it looks like I have overspent.
 

OrangeOwl

Veteran (100+ posts)
#34
gift aid money can be spent how you choose, it's just that you can't spend money which you are going to claim gift aid on for trips outwith the programme.
My point really is that if volunteers want to pay something into GG then it should go into a fundraising budget for any purpose or be donated with gift aid, and then the trips be paid for leaders and children.
 

frazzledguider

Veteran (100+ posts)
GuiderPlus
#35
My sleepover is partly funded from Gift Aid, so the money coming in from the parents will be less than the amount we have spent. How am I meant to show that in the accounts? I have it on one of the event sheets in the accounts, but it looks like I have overspent.
Could you show part of your gift aid money coming out of your main account and into your trip account? ie. its a purely paper transaction!
 

Lynz

Veteran (100+ posts)
#37
Maybe there's a blank cell near the top of the accounts for the trip that you could make a note of that for future reference if necessary. I've done that before to note why trips don't balance (either surplus back into funds towards replacing kit in the future or showing a loss due to subsidising or where a deposit was paid in the previous financial year so not showing in the current year accounts etc).
 

Sunny2nd

Guide and Ranger Leader
GuiderPlus
#38
As long as everything is "accounted" it doesn't really matter if you have an event that shows a negative, equally another might be in credit. I always get my parents to sign up on events like camp that any leftover money will go back into group funds for future events, go towards equipment etc.
 

scoobyking

Veteran (100+ posts)
#39
Going back to the OP - why did you charge £1 less that the per girl cost? Do you use unit funds make up the deficit?
There's been that many replies since I posted, I haven't read them all- I didn't realise there were be so many variation of replies. I didnt think about whether I was particularly making up the difference - its all unit funds as I see it. It was easier to charge £20 than £21 and have have odd coins everywhere. I'm happy to cover the difference from funds. I just wondered whether others ask the adults to pay.
 

chopperchick

Veteran (100+ posts)
Staff member
GuiderPlus
Moderator
#40
I didnt think about whether I was particularly making up the difference - its all unit funds as I see it. It was easier to charge £20 than £21 and have have odd coins everywhere. I'm happy to cover the difference from funds. I just wondered whether others ask the adults to pay.
Ultimately you're right - it is all unit funds. "unit funds" are made up of all the money you receive, whether from subs, general fundraising / donations or specific.
So, for example you charge £20 per term in subs, spend £19 on assorted crafts / rents / badges / whatever ....... then you want to go on a trip that costs £6 per person; you charged the parents £5 and used the "spare" £1 to make up the £6 for the trip.
It's all the same ultimately (assuming obviously it's all the same people involved).
Only question is whether you should / could find the money for leaders' costs from within that pot - either by spending less than £19 throughout the term (thus having more "spare") or charging the parents more than the £5.

My view is that "the trip" should finance the cost attributed to the number of leaders required to run it.
That aligns with the logic of volunteers not being out of pocket.

Aside from that, I think the "reasonableness" test then comes in ......... if the girls are asked to take a packed lunch, then it's not unreasonable for leaders to do the same. However, if the girls are paying to have lunch in the cafe, then the "cost of the trip" should include leaders' lunches as a trip expense. But, if everyone is asked to take a packed lunch to eat whenever they fancy throughout the day, and the leaders say "I don't fancy soggy sandwiches and a warm yoghurt for lunch, I'll go to the cafe", then not unreasonable for that to be a personal expense.